“… And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it…” – Matthew 16:18

Mormonism did not exist prior to 1830

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons or LDS) have been taught for the last 180 years that their religion is the “only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth [i].”   From their point of view, there has been no Christian church and no Christianity for the past two thousand years until Joseph Smith came to reinstate it. Mormons have been taught to believe that the Body of Christ has been absent from the world for nearly two millennia.

According to Mormon leaders, the true church was nonexistent from 90 A.D. until Joseph Smith arrived on the scene.  Because of Joseph Smith the true church was brought forth “out of obscurity” and was founded on the American frontier in 1830.   LDS authorities assert that the Apostle John, writing in the Book of Revelation, predicted the demise of the Christian Church and the later rise of Mormonism in America:  “…And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days… [ii] ”  How 1260 days calculates to 1740 years is still a mystery to Mormons and the rest of us [iii].

Mormons believe that they have received the restored gospel truths “line upon line, precept upon precept.” [iv]  “No other church has believed the true Gospel for eighteen centuries” is the propaganda put forth by Mormon leadership.  The Word of God, the Bible, has been mistranslated and misinterpreted during this entire time. Christ has been without a witness in the world. The plethora of ancient biblical manuscripts was utterly mistranslated by Christians; however Joseph Smith (who knew no Greek or Hebrew, or Egyptian for that matter) corrected the Word of God using an English Bible.  It has somehow escaped the notice of the Mormon faithful that the very King James Version Joseph Smith used to make his perfect Joseph Smith Translation (JST) was, according to their own authorities, entirely corrupted too.  

Joseph Smith claimed that he now had the gospel truths restored to him personally. From the Apostle John’s day until his own the world had been utterly lost. There were indeed “millions of God-fearing men living righteously by their own standards,” mind you, but Smith had to make his truth known in order to replace their broken theological “system which was based in error [v].”  If asked to name just one “God-fearing man or woman” who believed the Mormon doctrine and covenants in the eighteen centuries prior to Joseph Smith an answer cannot be found; hence, we prove from this query alone that Mormonism is a fabrication of Joseph Smith et al. The Book of Mormon is, in fact, a comic book of lies.

“We have come to restore the true church which has been nonexistent until we arrived” or “We are the New Testament Church” or “The Bible you have in your hand is in error, but we have the true word of god”  If you think you may have heard these kinds of things before, you have. Muslims and Jehovah’s Witnesses make identical claims.  Christian Scientists and all other subchristian cults say similar things.  All of these faiths have arrived on the religious scene to correct or add to the teachings of the Bible, more or less replacing the historic people of God. Though they themselves contradict each other on every point of doctrine they propose, each cult still claims to be the one true religion which has been called forth to restore the Bible and the Church.

But Christ’s Church was never lost and will never be lost.  There have always been a people of God, a chosen remanant, through whom our Lord has been building His Kingdom. They are the number of men and women called out of this world, and set apart from it, and are dedicated to the Lord Jesus Christ as their sole Redeemer.  He is our Sin-Bearer and Prophet and Priest and King. The chosen ones of God have always existed.  And these Elect, their Scriptures, and their doctrines have never been lost because the Builder and Maker of the Church is Christ Himself. The Mormons and these other pseudo-christian counterfeits are the ones who have been hopelessly lost, not the Christians; and they have been lost because they are not Christians.  God has always had a people, a congregation, who are called by His name from the very beginning of time and even up and to this present day, and He will forevermore always have a church filled with Christ’s people. Not even the gates of hell can prevail against Christ’s Church. There are times when Satan has tried to pervert the church, but the devil has always failed.  Such a satanic perversion is seen in the arrival of these faddish cults such as Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Islam.  Each one of these false faiths claim to have the truth of God in their religion, yet none of them were known to exist prior to the arrival of their earthly founders. 

Christ’s Church is built upon a Rock, and this Rock is Christ Himself.  His people throughout history, including in ancient Israel “… drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ… [vi]”  Orthodox Christianity has existed from day one and can be traced through time by way of our Scripture, our books and commentaries.  Our teaching has been proven to be a consistent faith — not only by what we have written about ourselves, but by the writings of our enemies.  From Roman times to the present day, the many enemies of Christian people have written much about us. We have always existed and we have always taught the same thing about God.  The Bible and our doctrines have remained in their original form and are protected from harm.  The Apostle’s Creed is proof of this claim.

His writings are still with us – no Mormon doctrine found within

And what about the unbroken chain from Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham and Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Rahab, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David and Samuel and the rest of the prophets? Then to the Apostles onward to Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Papias, Tertullian, Origen, Alexander of Alexandria, Athanasius, the Gregories, Chrysostom, Augustine, Aquinas, Wyclif, Hus, Calvin, Luther, Knox, Pascal, Bunyan, Zwingli, Wesley, Edwards, Whitefield, Dwight, Spurgeon, the Hodges, Warfield, Lloyd-Jones, and Sproul. Time will fail me if I mention the millions of other Christians of days gone by who have all believed in the very same doctrines that Joseph Smith wrongly condemned.  And now Joseph Smith is condemned for inventing a new faith that was never taught in the two thousand year history of the Christian church.

Christians are men and women from all over the world who have been God’s witnesses and have believed the Gospel as expressed in the teachings of the Bible, and the Bible only. These teachings have been summarized in the Apostle’s Creed and other ancient documents. Christians have always believed what these men and woman believed because what they believed is what the Apostles believed. Christians quote from the ancient testimonies and books dating to the time of the Apostles. Ignatius, Clement and Polycarp, for instance, are first generation Christians, and it is widely believed they were taught by the Apostle John himself or someone near to him. Their writings are still with us. Their so-called “broken theological system,” despise by Joseph Smith, has been preserved miraculously throughout history and is available to read this very day.  How about Mormon doctrine?  Does it have an unbroken chain of witnesses too?  We want to see proof.

Where are the Mormon witnesses in history?  They don’t exist.  And they don’t exist because Mormonism is not the true faith.  It is a recent invention of Joseph Smith and his followers.



[ii]  Revelation12:6 (KJV).

[iii]  You might be interested in knowing that this unconventional commentary was published by Marion Romney, uncle of 2008 Presidential Candidate, Mitt Romney, in DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS COMMENTARY, Deseret Book Company, © 1972, Winchester, MA: University Press, p. 9


[v]  ON THE WAY TO IMMORTALITY AND ETERNAL LIFE, Clark, J. Reuben, © 1949, pp. 442-443

[vi]  1 Corinthians 10:4

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  1. hebrewtranslation September 5, 2010 at 7:44 PM #

    wonderfull information freind 🙂 10x a bunch

  2. shematwater September 6, 2010 at 12:06 PM #

    Very interesting.

    “If asked to name just one “God-fearing man or woman” who believed the Mormon doctrine and covenants in the eighteen centuries prior to Joseph Smith an answer cannot be found.”
    This is not entirely accurate. While there were none who taught these things (because they did not know them) there were many who knew that something was missing, and tried to fill in the blanks that were so obvious to them. Martin Luther is one, and Jean Calvin is another. They did not have the full truth, and they knew it. So, in a sense they did believe in the restored gospel, but did not understand exactly what it was.

    “How 1260 days calculates to 1740 years is still a mystery to Mormons and the rest of us [iii].”
    If you look in the JST it actually says 1260 years, not days. Also, you are giving dates that the church has never claimed. The leaders have never given a date at which the great apostacy began. Some members have speculated, but nothing has been proclaimed as doctrine.
    As such, if we take 1830 and subtract 1260 we get the figure 570. Interpret it how you like, but this is the actual figures that should be used.

  3. Nicholas Voss September 6, 2010 at 12:24 PM #

    @shemawater: I got the Mormon apostasy date of roughly 90 A.D. (more or less) from Mormon elders who are ordained in the so-called Melchizedek Priesthood. Are these missionaries not qualified to speak on behalf of the Mormon church???? This was confirmed by the LDS online chat missionaries. The date is also implied on page 9 in the D&C commentary authored by JF Smith, Harold Lee, and Marion Romney (Mitt’s uncle!). And if this date is incorrect then when did the apostasy occur? Surely this would be recorded in history somewhere.

    Please don’t insult biblical Christianity by trying to associate Mormonism with the great Christians of the past such as Calvin and Luther. Your attempt to make Mormonism virtuous by association with our leaders is hopelessly vain and actually quite stupid.

    Mormonism is an invention of Joseph Smith and his contemporaries. There was no Mormonism before 1830. Mormonism is the great apostasy, not historic biblical Christianity.

    Joseph Smith is dead. Jesus is alive. Why follow the teachings of a dead prophet?

  4. Michael Babcock September 6, 2010 at 11:04 PM #

    Shematwate, you said, “there were many who knew that something was missing, and tried to fill in the blanks that were so obvious to them. Martin Luther is one, and Jean Calvin is another. They did not have the full truth, and they knew it. So, in a sense they did believe in the restored gospel, but did not understand exactly what it was.” Could you please demonstrate the validity of that statement?

    Have you ever read anything by Luther or Calvin? They both did believe they had the “full truth.” They recognized that the medieval church had been corrupted by the doctrines and traditions of men, but they did not suppose that the truth of the Gospel was impossible to find or wondered what it could be. They both rested in the fact that the Bible is the whole Word of God and that God so loved His elect people that He preserved the Gospel for all time. They believed the promise of Christ who said to His Church, “I will be with you to the end of the age” (Matt. 28:20). Do you really believe Jesus was a liar or unable to keep His promise in any way? Jude also proclaimed that the truth was once and for all delivered to God’s people. That truth is to be found in the pages of God’s Book.

    Moreover, even if your presupposition concerning the validity of the Book of Mormon was true, it was given to those in the “new world,” not to those in the “old.” Do not Mormons claim that it is only another testimony of Christ? If it is only another testimony to the Gospel, then it can add nothing substantial to what was given in the Bible, as the book for the Old World saints. In that case, the BoM is completely unnecessary for salvation. In fact, it can easily be demonstrated that the BoM is false as it completely misses the typology of the OT and the covenant theology that it so eloquently maintains. So then, what doctrine could be missing that left Luther or Calvin bewildered since they had the full revelation of God given to the Church in the Old World?

    And if you are maintaining that the “great apostasy” came around 570, then what do you do with all the Church’s ecumenical creeds established before that apostasy, which condemns Mormonism as heresy?

  5. shematwater September 7, 2010 at 1:22 PM #

    Let us look at things logically for once, instead of through the blinded lense that so many seem to prefer.

    When I spoke of Martin Luther and Jean Calvin I was referencing their work in reformation. They did not simply begin to believe these things that they taught. They started with the realization that the current church was not true, but had deviated from the true gospel of Christ. If this was not their basic starting point they would have had no reason to seek what they came to believe as the truth.
    I am not talking about their final beliefs and doctrine, but what caused them to seek that doctrine. Thus, when I say they knew something was missing I am being very logical and very reasonable in what I say.

    Matthew 28: 20 is a promise to the twelve, not the church. They were commanded to teach the world, and were promised that they would always have Christ with them. It is not a promise that the true gospel would always be on the Earth, nor is it a promise without condition. It is conditioned on them teaching what Christ commands them to teach.
    Now, I can understand this being interpreted as being a promise to all the leaders and missionaries and so on, but it is still conditioned on them faithfully teaching the gospel. So, when they stop teaching the true gospel the promise is no longer valid, and Christ leaves.
    (Please give a verse in Jude.)

    Now, I am not commenting on the Book of Mormon, but as to the year 570, if you read my words I never once claimed this to be the beginning of the apostacy. I simply said that this was a more accurate calculation and left it at that. If you really want to analyze things you could take the date of the Councel of Nicea (which is the most common date I seen for the apostacy) of 325 and add 1260 you get 1585. This is the date of the first English attempt to Colonize the America’s.
    There are several ways to interpret the numbers and years and dates given in prophecy, but I did not attempt to give any of them. There is no point in doing so. I leave it up to the individual to study it out themselves.

    I don’t really care who said it, it is not official. you can imply what you want from the words of the leaders, but in the introduction to the first volume of Church History it states that no one can put an exact date as to when the apostacy occured. The reason is because it was a single event, but a process; a process that had begun even in the days of the first apostles. It is generally agreed upon that a complete apostacy had set in within a few decades after the council of Nicea, but even this is more speculation than anything else.

    As to insults, I find it rather interesting that you can through them around as you like, but insist that no one does so to you. What I said is perfectly valid, as explained to Michael. You give no evidence that contradicts what I have said beyond your own opinion, but seem to think that simple calling me stupid will end the debate. It may end my partisipation, and in so doing give you some sort of satisfaction, but it proves nothing, and is thus a false satisfaction. Please, show me where I am wrong instead of simply stating that I am.

    • Nicholas Voss September 7, 2010 at 3:08 PM #

      @shamatwater: When you initially spoke of Martin Luther and John Calvin you attempted to justify Mormonism in the process. I am growing weary of Mormons and other cult writers associating their false teaching with those of authoritative and traditional Christians. Cults like yours imitate the form of the Bible writing so that it appears to sound like the Bible itself. Other Mormon missionaries have tried to do the same thing. Why do Mormons endeavor to become virtuous by associating their religion with the heroes of the Christian faith? Is it because Mormons grope for a history that does not exist. I do not believe the alternative histories presented by Mormonism either. Mormonism is a recent American religious invention. Mormonism has no credibility on its own so it must borrow or hitchhike on the integrity and reliability of the historic Christian faith. All clear now?

      I’m glad you think you are being logical and reasonable in what you say about this topic, but instead of telling us about your “logical thinking” and so-called “reasonableness” why don’t you allow your listeners to make that decision for themselves. Are you going to tell us next how smart and loving and caring you are too?

      Christ will never leave His people as you explicitly (and wrongly) stated. You may think He will, but you do not know Him, nor have you ever known Him, and therefore you do not have a secure faith built of solid ground. Christ’s prayer in John 15-18 was that 1) everything that Christ knew, He gave to His people; 2) His people received this understanding; 3) not one of Christ’s chosen ones would ever fall away; 4) that they would be made holy and set apart in the truth of the Gospel; 5) the disciples of Christ would be sent out in the world to preach this truth; 6) Christ assured His people that He would keep them from stumbling; 7) THIS PRAYER WAS NOT ONLY FOR THE 1ST CENTURY BELIEVERS BUT ALSO FOR ALL THOSE WHO CAME AFTER THE TWELEVE WHO HEARD THE GOSPEL FROM THEM:

      “I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me though their word that they may all be one…” – John 17:20-21

      It seems you cannot set a date on when the so-called apostasy occurred? This you admit. And therefore you are in agreement with my article. I guess you proved my point after all.

      Insults? I think you are fairly good at dishing out insults yourself. But I can take the insults you hurl at me and other Christians; however, you cannot receive them yourself. I am not attacking you personally (in case you were wondering). I am attacking the false christianity found in Mormonism. If you are personally insulted at my voracious attacks I made on false prophets such as Joseph Smith et al., then I cannot help that. I was not attacking you, just your false prophets. I still think you are foolish for believing them. I suggest that you grow some thicker skin.

      Look … that’s up to you if you want to end the participation. You invited yourself into the conversation, remember? I’m happy to have you here, but if you are looking for empathy among likeminded people, then maybe you joined the wrong debate. I consider Mormonism a very heretical and insidious religion invented by the devil. And if you feel that kind of language is too harsh then have you read what Mormon leaders have said about historic Christianity?

      Your eternal soul is a stake and believing in a false prophet needs a serious rebuke. Maybe my so-called “harsh words” will awake you from your slumber. Instead of feeling sorry for yourself, perhaps you might want to spend your time wondering why there were no Mormons in the world before 1830?

      If you are ever in the Phoenix area, let’s get together. I’m really not as mean as I sound in my emails and blogs.

  6. shematwater September 8, 2010 at 9:27 AM #


    It is a personal attack when you say I am stupid. Sorry.

    Whatever you believe has nothing to do with what I said. I never claimed that these men taught the doctrine of the LDS church. What I said, and very accurately, was that they recognized that the current church of their day did not have the true gospel. Thus they understood the need for something to change. this is the whole philosophy behind the Reformation. If they did not accept this basic idea there would have been no need to reform the church as they did.
    So, the basic concept of apostacy and the need for the true gospel to be restored they did acknowledge. This is my point, and one that cannot be refuted without denying them as Christian leaders.

    I have no problem with your opinions about the LDS church, as long as they are opinions and not pushed as proven fact. You have said a lot, but have given very little actual evidence. (I may be confusing two different blogs here.)
    I joined the conversation simply to make a few observations in the spirit of friendly discussion. I am not looking for empathy from “like-minded” people, only civil discussion.

    Now, I am not in agreement with your article, because I believe the apostacy did occur. I am simply in agreement that no actual date can be set for the occurance as it was a progressive thing. Just like there can be no actual date to the settling of the American West, as it was progressive thing. We can estimate when each of these evidents stated, as well as when they were completed, but we cannot give exact dates.

    As to John 15-18, these are again promises made to the faithful. It was a prayer on behalf of the Apostles and all those who believed their words. However, once the Apostles were all dead and false doctrine started to creep in the number of people who believed what they originally taught slowly dwindled until there were none who believed the original teachings. As such Christ did not remove himself fromt he people. Rather the people removed themselves from Christ. Once this happened these promises were no longer in force.

    Now, let us get one things strait. I am not trying to convince you of anything. You believe what you want to believe, and that is fine.

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